A common misconception in modern ministry is equating success with increasing membership. However, in a recent Disciple Maker’s Podcast with Matt Dabbs and Brandon Guindon, Brandon offered a different perspective. In the previous blog post, Brandon and Matt stated that the metric of success isn’t just about growth in numbers but growth in the quality of discipleship. This might sometimes mean the church might shrink as people who aren’t committed to this culture opt to leave. But this process is essential for creating a true disciple-making culture.
View Brandon Guindon’s book on creating a Disciple Making Culture here: Disciple Making Culture
Brandon Guindon stated, “I think the place we need to start to build a culture is, am I okay with whatever the numeric outcomes are? Because I’ve coached guys that have done this in their churches and their churches shrank because the people don’t want to do this. On both sides, the leadership of the church and the people that are in the churches have built this culture and expectations around things of what the western American church is that so much of it is just flat-out unhealthy and cultural. And it’s not just even the theological things. It’s how we live and what our priorities are.”
“One of the things I’ve held to is this principle that I’m responsible for the quality of the disciple that I make. I have to learn and grow and be the best disciple maker I can and we see that in Acts. The church focused on the quality of their relationships, caring for one another, all of those things. God was responsible and it is responsible for quantity. If I chase quantity, then there is a high chance I will compromise quality. I will try to find shortcuts and ways around because my end goal is growing it to 2000, 4000, 10, 000 or whatever.”
“And I don’t think it’s biblical. Our job is to go to love people, to focus on loving them. The best way we know how to teach truth, the gospel, and to love and walk with people in that discipling relationship and then allow God to handle the numbers. And it’s easy to lose focus. I’ve struggled with it at various times. But at the end of the day, that’s what we’re called to, to do and focus on and not buy into this, ‘Well, if I don’t hit a certain number, I’m not successful.’ That’s not true. sometimes your church might have to shrink, and people who aren’t committed to it leave. And that’s sometimes hard to look at as being successful.”
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Matt Dabbs added, “There’s a myth. I think it’s a misunderstanding. People often will say, ‘Do what you love. Follow your passion.’ Okay, if you can do that great, but what if God calls you to do something that’s going to make you highly uncomfortable? You’re probably not going to love it at first. Like loving the lost. That’s hard. I’m probably not going to love this.”
“I can recount the people I’ve had in my car over the years where when they got out of my car, I had to fumigate my car. I could barely stand to be in my car with them, but I had to learn to grow and love. I can think of several people throughout my ministry where I grew to deeply love those people. But some of them at first pushed me hard to not love them because they had a narrative in their mind that they were unlovable, and they saw me as a minister that’s got to love everybody. And if they could push me away, they sure could keep holding that story of, ‘Even the pastor can’t love me.’ So, I had to dig in through all the junk they threw at me; just keep loving them and that’s hard. I’m not trying to pat myself on the back. I’m just saying, you’re not always going to love it. And we have this American myth that says, ‘Follow your passion, do what you love.’ What do you think?”
Brandon Guindon replied, “Reflecting over all the years, whether I was in Post Falls or here in Houston and all the different groups that I’ve led and people I’ve discipled, 70 to 80 percent of that was hard; like really hard. I had a conversation with one of our church planters who just finished our residency. He’s discipling this group of guys, and it’s not going well. It’s been rough. He was like, ‘I just want to quit.’ I said to him, ‘You’re going to ask yourself that question if not every day, every week for the rest of the ministry.’ And he asked, ‘Like, you, it’s been that way for you?’ And I said, ‘Yeah.’ I mean, some of my closest friends along the way have fallen away or went a different direction or whatever.”
“The leader, mature end of the process is hard, but the front end of discipling folks that are not a Christian and coming from rough lifestyles has its own difficulty. And so, I think if you’re not willing to step into the hard, then, you’re under an illusion of what this is. Jesus said that the path is going to be hard. The narrow path will be hard, and I just think we have to expect that. But, when you see that one person’s life change, when you see that person raised up and step into a calling, God’s given them to me, it’s worth it. When a marriage is restored; when you see those two and get to be a part of those things. And that’s what makes it so worth it.”
Listen to the entire podcast here: Disciple Making Culture — What Is Most Important in Creating a Disciple Making Culture (feat. Brandon Guindon)
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